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Excerpts from the Jerry Goldsmith Society's Film Music Seminar on August 19th 1989


Q: At what stage in the production of the film is the composer usually brought in? Is music always the last thought in the film producer's mind?

J.G.: There's no pattern for that. I have been engaged for a film before the director has been engaged, such was the case on STAR TREK - THE MOTION PICTURE. Sometimes I have been engaged two weeks before they're going to record the picture. Sometimes I have been enaged after the picture has been scored, such as CHINATOWN. I re-scored the film. There is no set pattern. In the last two years I have been usually engaged before the picture has been started. I could get a call tomorrow asking if I could start the next day to work.

Q.: Does it ever help to read the script, or does it give you preconceived ideas that would have to be reiected at a later date?

J.G.: The script is very deceiving. You can get a brilliant script and see it transformed on the screen in a very inadequate way. Or an inferior script given a whole new injection of life by a brilliant director. But you have to read the script if you're gonna accept an assignment before the picture is made, and hope. I have had some rather disastrous results because the script didn't quite come out like I thought it would.

Q.: Have you ever been on the location of a film?

J.G.: Yeah. It doesn't really help much. If any of you have seen a film being shot it's just pretty boring. I mean I've just spent two days on the set of GREMLINS II which I am sure is no secret by now. And I just thank God I am not an actor. Boy is that boring!

Q.: At what stage does the actual spotting take place and can you briefly explain the relationship between the composer and the music editor?

J.G.: Well the one I work with, Kenny Hall, is an immense help. There aren't too many around like him. It goes back to the old breed of music editor, who was really an ally to the composer a real right hand person. But when you've worked with someone as long as I have worked with Kenny, a lot of it becomes second nature.
Kenny starts with me and we spot the picture, take notes, where the music starts where the music ends. Any discussions I have with the director about mood or changes or concepts, he will act as a secretary too. He breaks the film down for me and gives m the timings to write too. As I write it, he takes it and cues the film and also catches my mistakes and timings which I make a lot of. Since he's musical he's a musician, he can see where I?m short bars or too long bars, and say I?ve gotta cut or gotta add. He balances, evens out the time and then marks the film, cues the film up. He's at the recording when I record, where at that point he's a cheering section to keep you going. It can become discouraging at times. Writing music is a very lonely profession, a very insecure one. When you finally perform this music, you're really performing it for an audience who really knows nothing about music, that's the producer and director. They can love something on the scoring stage and go to the dubbing stage and all of a sudden they don't like it. I think there's a certain infectious quality about a large orchestra and live musicians. I remember going back when I first started on radio, the cast would read the script, I would come in with the orchestra during a cast lunch break, and the cast would always stay and eat their lunch in the studio because they got so excited when an orchestra came in. There's something very infectious about that. The same thing goes at the recording stage. Kenny's there to sort of keep me level headed. After that he places the music in the film, cuts it in. A lot of times the film has been changed after we scored the picture. The budget doesn't allow so he has to cut the music or do some magic with scissors to make the music fit. I am very dependent on Kenny. He's in my contract, he has to be part of it.

Q.: Film is basically an art based on collaboration. So how closely do you like to work with the film's director?

J.G.: The closer I can work with a director the better. I mean, some directors will work very close with you, some don't. A man like Spielberg is at your house everyday if you ask him to which is a pleasure because he loves music and wants to be involved with it. Other directors... I?ve spotted a picture when the director wasn't even around. It just depends. The better, the more collaboration there is the better. The longer you work with a director the easier it is. A man like Schaffner was so easy. There were so few words between us, but we knew. A guy like Joe Dante, the new picture would be the sixth I've done with him. You get to know each other. I've always said the relationship between the composer and director for the first time is like a boy and a girl going on a first date. Everyone is very polite with one another, don't want to make any waves, so I sometimes wonder if you don't get the best results that way. Pull hair and scream and yell a little to get what you want.

Q.: Many directors probably are unable to explain exactly what they need for a composer as it's may be something you can't define technically. Does it help if a director has a knowledge of music and is able to give instructions like the music should have a Bach - like feel here, or something like that?

J.G.: No that's a hindrance. A little bit of knowledge is dangerous sometimes. There was one director who played the drurns and thought he was an authority on music! I'd rather have a director like Robert Wise who said, "Well I don't know anything about music, but I know when it's right and when it's wrong." Sounds like a corny phrase which it is, and I've heard it said so often but in his case he was right, because his dramatic instinct is so strong. I remember in THE SAND PEBBLES we were doing a scene, a big shot of the Sand Pebbles going up the river. I had this big pounding music, it was very majestic, I was playing the panorama instead of the situation emotionally. He said, "That's a little boat going up a big river." He was right, it should have been a very quiet piece of music which I changed it to. He knows dramatically what he wants. I'd rather have that from a director. A man like Schaffner could express himself both musically and dramatically. A director like the Australian Richard Franklin, who adores music, you can talk to for hours. And we've sat and talked. I remember on PSYCHO II we sat and talked for hours and hours and hours trying to get an angle on it. He finally dropped one word 'innocence' and that triggered something in me. If a director has the patience to sit and work with the composer. Unfortunately too many directors feel intimidated by music and by the composer because they don't know anything about it. Which is one of my objections to the training of film makers. They go to school and hopefully learn about all of the technical aspects of film making but fail to learn anything about the technical aspects of the application of music. When it comes to working with a composer they are intimidated, and I think the less they can do with it, the happier they are. It doesn't make for good results. A guy like Joe Dante, he tracks all his own pictures. Fortunately it's all Bernard Herrmann so it's easy to get around. But you get the idea where he's going. Every director is different. That's where it's very interesting, you work with four or five directors a year and not one of them is the same.

Q.: Can you briefly outline how you work with an orchestrator, and how important the orchestrator's job is?

J.G.: I am always asked this question. What does the orchestrator do? Arthur Morton's favourite line is, "I take the music from the yellow paper and put it on the white paper." I write everything on a nine - line sketch, two lines for the wood winds, two lines for the brass, three lines for the keyboards, two lines for the strings and a couple for the percussion. I am literally orchestrating it as I go along in a short hand form. I am saving myself the labour of writing out 48 staves. I indicate what instruments are playing. Arthur just takes it and puts it on the big paper. I don't leave anything to change for anyone. It's my music and I want it to sound the way I hear it. I don't compose for the piano, I compose for the orchestra. But time does not allow me the actual labour of putting it to full score, so that?s where the orchestrator comes in. The first picture I used an orchestrator on was LONELY ARE THE BRAVE, in the old studio days where you had to have an orchestrator. That was the way it worked. I was instructed that I had to have an orchestrator, that was David Tamkin who was a wonderful man, great musician. I just didn't know how to make a sketch. I wasn't used to it. I remember the first four or five cues I orchestrated myself anyway, till he finally said, "You've got to start sketching it." So that's what I did. There's a very funny anecdote to that. Bernard Herrmann was raising hell with me. He was screaming at me one day walking down the street at Universal. He started screaming at me from across the street, "You're like the rest of the Hollywood horrors, you're using an orchestrator." The man was known for these strange fits. Anyway he was screaming at me, and I ducked. I said, "I was instructed. "He said,"You sold out!" So when we were recording the music, I wasn't conducting, I wasn't allowed to conduct either! Joseph Gershenson did that. We came to rather a big cue, and just as we were starting, Benny walked in, I said, "Oh no!" He was still a revered, feared figure then. I thought, 'Boy we're really in trouble now.' We finished the take, and he came over to me and I can see he's gonna cut loose. He starts screaming, "It's too good, don't let ?em have it, it's too good for the picture, keep it, don't let 'em have it." Even though someone else orchestrated it! But the main thing is that I think Arthur Morton with whom I have worked for almost twenty years, he's a very close friend in a very lonely occupation. Sometimes under the pressure of work you get nervous and insecure, and the orchestrator acts as your alter ego, and support. Once in a while he?ll say that's not bad when you're starting to doubt yourself. We have got to the point now where very few words are exchanged between us, he knows what I'm thinking, although not always. I keep surprising him. Lately, a young lady, Nancy Beach, has been helping Arthur out, because he's slowly down in years, getting on a bit. Travelling doesn't agree with him too much. Soon these longer trips Nancy will come along and finish it off.

[...]

Q.: What are your views Mr. Goldsmith of re-recording a score immediately after doing a soundtrack, especially on album? I believe that might have been done on UNDER FIRE?

J.G.: No UNDER FIRE wasn?t... well partially. There was certain music I had just written for the album. the reason for that was, the whole score had a large, large sum of money advanced by Warner Brothers to produce the record for me to use Pat Methany who may or may not mean anything to you. He didn't to me, I just found out he was sort of a cult figure in the fusion world - that's rock and jazz. I'm sure you know that. I didn't. So I had to write some things for the album for him. That's why that thing that opens the album is sort of a virtuoso piece for him. And I made a romance out of the love theme. That was the only two pieces I did for the album. The rest of it was the soundtrack, I didn't re-record it. Years ago to save money, well it's still true today, they will re-record it in Europe rather than pay the re-use fees at home. That?s the only reason for re-recording it. From an aesthetic point of view it's better for me because I don't have to be restricted to the time limitations of the film. If I want to broaden something out. I was recording THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY the other day, and last night it was probably a minute slower than it was in the picture. I didn?t have to rush for the picture. I could take my time, be a bit more expressive. I would prefer to go back and do it over again.

[...]

Q.: Today it seems that a lot of the heads of the music departments of film companies come from a record company background rather than a musical background. Has this had an effect on the quality of film music these days, with the constant demand for more commercial rather than artistically correct scores?

J.G.: I don't think it helps it. That's just the mentality of the whole industry. But it really boils down to the film maker. I mean a man like Spielberg is not going to be concerned about selling a lot of records, he knows his pictures are going to make a lot of money, he doesn't have film, he's a true film maker. There are others who will say, "Sure let's hype the picture up." I think it's very interesting that nobody cares about thinking what would be a classic film in years to come. I think all these films loaded with all these pop records in 25 years will look and sound like dinosaurs because the music is gonna date them so quickly. We won't have classic films. I don't think TOP GUN is going to be a classic film, for the simple fact that the music will date it. The heads of the music departments are just put there because this is the general thinking. The record mentality has invaded. Hollywood is notoriously famous for copying success. Going back to suppose, SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER which sold 22 million copies. They said, "That?s the way to do it!" So no matter what the film is, they stick in what they think will be popular music. I've got a lot of mail saying everything is my fault. Let me tell you, I don't make the decisions as to who puts an album out or not. It's not my decision. If a record company wants to put an album out, I can't stop them. There again I can't make them. I don't own the soundtrack. What goes into an album such as the case of GREMLINS or INNERSPACE or EXPLORERS, that's not my decision, it was made by the studio and the record company who agree to put the record out that they were gonna put in so many of these pop songs. I have already had meetings on the new GREMLINS, I begged them that I didn't want a repeat of that last fiasco. They've guaranteed there will only be two pop songs and a full soundtrack album. So we'll see. A man like Steve Bedell, who was the head of the music department at Pararnount, a wonderful guy, a very tasteful man. Although he wasn't a musician per se, he came from the publishing world, but he was a great ally to all us who consider film music an art form. I just heard the other day he was leaving Paramount, so that's a sad loss for us. I am sure he will emerge some place else. Otherwise, I don't know who these people are who are running music departments. They seem like nice guys. But their main job is to get successful records. There isn't one musician who's running a music department anymore in Hollywood. But these decisions aren't made by the music department heads they're just a service department. The decision about who's going to score a film and what the film is going to contain is that of the film maker. That's where the blame lies. If one complains about the quality of film music today it isn't the people who claim to be composers that are writing this crap. It's the film makers who allow it in their films in the first place. Some don't realize what difference a good piece of music can make to their film. There is a lot of ego in the film makers too. It's very sad. I've seen films that are very sensitive and beautiful... there are a couple out just now. I am sort of appalled at the use of the music. I thought "Don't they realize what they could add to the film with proper use of music?" So really forget the heads of the music departments and all, it really boils down to the director.

Q: What does Mr. Goldsmith think about those who criticize his work with synthesizers?

J.G.: What would I say to those people who criticize me for using synthesizers? They don?t like electronics, I can't make people like what I do,it?s their choice but I don't understand them. It's too easy to dismiss electronics, give them a chance because they're here to stay and you can't wish them away, you can only wish for a better one of them.

Q: In your opinion, can film music be regarded as a part of contemporary music and what do you think of avant garde concert music?

J.G.: I don't know about the place of film music in the concert hall. It's too early to tell. I was looking through some old programmes of the Los Angeles Philharmonic in the 30s. I was astounded at how much film music they played in their subscription concerts. Victor Young did a suite for FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS and a few other people did excerpts from their film scores, regularly, every season. Now there's a very snob attitude to film music in the concert world, but I've found from concerts I've been doing, that so many people come up to me and say that they had never attended a symphony performance of film music before and found it so exciting that they couldn?t wait to attend another one.
I remember getting a letter from a young man who said he had bought the album of THE SECRET OF NIMH and he was so enthralled and fascinated by the big orchestra that he went out and started buying Brahms and Debussy and now is a subscriber to the symphony series, so if nothing else, film music is a great crossover to people who have yet to discover the symphony orchestra.
I was discussing this with Clive Gillinson, the managing director of the L.S.O., last night, he was quite fascinated by it. There's somebody from a record company, I don't know the record company's name, approaching film music from that attitude now to make a crossover to catch those younger people yet to discover the symphony orchestra. Film music must be made more accessible. Whether accessible music is going to be acceptable in the concert hall I don't know, I hope it will be. The avant garde seems to be, which I am interested in and I can say that it isn't all bad. That's a personal opinion, I react to what I like. I adore Penderecki and I would definitely say he composes avant garde music. Music goes in phases, like all art. I think this century has yet to catch up with itself and decide where it is going to go musically. It certainly isn't as clearly delineated as the ninteenth century was, in any of the art forms, I don't think.

Q: Do you ever go to the movies, Mr. Goldsmith, just purely for enjoyment and to relax, and what kind of films do you like, and do you find yourself composing to what is happening on the screen?

J.G.: I don't get much time to go to the movies but, no, I try not to!

Q: As there are so few films of real quality being made now, how difficult is it to maintain your self-imposed high standard, to produce the best work you can. I refer to the excellent score you wrote for the awful remake of KING SOLOMONIS MINES.

J.G.: Thank you. That was my choice, to do that film, for the fun of it, but I have to say that I have made some terrible choices, I've given an oath to a man and turned out a score for some lousy pictures. I found that I like doing films like A PATCH OF BLUE, CHINATOWN, UNDER FIRE and HOOSIERS. I am trying to be more selective, so what have I chosen to do, TOTAL RECALL and GREMLINS II, action pictures!

Q: How many PATCH OF BLUE's do they make these days?

J.G.: Not enough, but sensitive films are being made, a lot of them aren't over here yet. A lovely picture out in the States, is a film called FIELD OF DREAMS, the only mistake they made was not having me to score it!

Q: Do you have time to listen to the work of other film composers and which ones do you like?

J.G.: I don't really sit and listen to the work of other film composers, but if I go to a movie, I'll listen to it, but I don't buy their records, and if I do listen to their work, it's always the work of composers I can learn something from. People like Alex North, John Williarns, and Bruce Broughton, who incidently is a very gifted young man.

Q: Is there the possibility of a recording of LONELY ARE THE BRAVE?

J.G.: To clear up the issue of this particular score. The recording of the score had been set up here in London, I was given a guarantee by Universal Pictures that the parts still do exist. Once an orchestra has been engaged to record a score, it cannot be disengaged. You pay for it whether you record or not, and we discovered that half the score was missing! Universal moved the library, all 11,000 boxes of it, and scores and parts of scores were scattered all over remnants of things, it would have meant showing the movie and trying to reconstruct the score from it, and was just not possible, so the decision was taken to do RIO CONCHOS instead.

Q: Soundtrack albums and original scores are sometimes different from the record. For example, UNDER FIRE was better in the film than what was put on the record, why the difference?

J.G.: Why is the score in the film different than that put on record, I don?t know, it?s exactly the same music and every note in the film is on the soundtrack, except for two pieces that were written for the record but were not in the film.

Q: A lot of people ask a very stupid question, but why do so many composers, including you, write such good music for such awful films as some you have written music for, have turned out to be, or is it an occupational hazard that the composer writes music for a film which might turn out to be a bomb?

J.G.: That?s a chance you take, I can read a script and say, yes, I?ll do it, I can take an assignment on the film maker's name, someone I respect, sometimes he hits, sometimes misses. Once I?ve agreed and signed a contract I can't back out of it. I've been utterly dismayed by some of the films I have worked on, I did the best I could, I've written music for a film that will never be heard but that's the way it goes.

Q: Mr. Goldsmith, did you have much involvement with Otto Preminger during the making of IN HARMS WAY and what are your memories of working for him.

J.G.: Oh, I have wonderful memories of working with dear Otto, I remember Ernest Gold recommended me to Preminger for the picture, it was a big step in my career and I remember driving down the street, seeing Ernest, and waving to him, I stopped and said "Gee I don?t know whether to thank you or hate you for recommending me for that film". "Nevermind" he said," you'll be the delight of any partys with Otto's stories". So it started in a war and ended in a war. There are other stories but they are unimportant now. He wasn?t a pleasant man, that's all I'm prepared to say.

Q: You worked with the late Sam Peckinpah on THE BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE, which was a very gentle film, do you have any memories of working with him?

J.G.: Sam was great. It was a constant party with Sam, he liked to party.

Q: He liked Campari and Soda, I believe.

J.G.: No, Vodka! When I first met him in the screening room, it was one o'clock and he called his secretary for a tray of Vodka, ice and glasses, it was love at first sight he was totally mad but one of the most gifted men in Hollywood. He had problems too but he was a very talented man certainly appreciative and very helpful.

Q: It was touched on at the concert last night, the subject of temp tracking, what are your thoughts on this?

J.G.: I well understand why they do it. Frank Schaffner never allowed it. Once on PAPILLON the Editor just put a piece of music at the ending, he was furious about it, and it?s a terrible pain to me! Certain films like ALIEN, where they fell in love with a temp track of something I'd written and they wanted to use it over and over again in the picture, I thought it was totally wrong to put FREUD in the film but they did it. On the other hand, as I said last night, the temp track gave me an idea for UNDER FIRE, (which was temp tracked with THE FLIGHT OF THE PHOENIX). John Williams loves it. It?s a big help to him. I saw a film just before I left, they had temp tracked it with all my music! They said did I want to see it with or without the music, I said without because my music temped into a picture is more annoying than having somebody elses. The image of what was originally composed is still in my mind.

Q: Of all the orchestras you have worked with, which orchestras do you particularly like to work with and why?

J.G.: I like the English orchestras very much, I've worked with the R.P.O., the L.S.O., the Philharmonia and the National. I like them all, because musicians go from one to the other anyway so whoever was at a recording session on Wednesday will probably be there again on Friday.

Q: Yes, It's quite funny, you can have the London Symphony Orchestra one day, The Royal Philharinonic Orchestra the next, and it's the same faces.

J.G.: The English musicians have a certain tradition, but American musicians are very professional too.

Q: What about temperament and English musicians?

J.G.: The discipline and the friendly attitude, I find them friendlier than American musicians. The orchestras in America, they look at you... and you feel defeated straight away. I'll do maybe three concerts with them... they really are conductor killers. Sometimes they are very intimidating, and I think, why am I doing this, I don't need this animosity but that's the way the orchestras are back home. I've been here so many times that I know many of the musicians personally.